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	<title>Comments on: Raising Children &#8211; my letter to my son.</title>
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	<link>http://livingwithmormons.com/raising-children-my-letter-to-my-son/</link>
	<description>Collisions between faith and reason in Utah</description>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://livingwithmormons.com/raising-children-my-letter-to-my-son/comment-page-1/#comment-675</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Jan 2011 21:13:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://livingwithmormons.com/?p=299#comment-675</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been watching a similar situation unfold with a co-worker and his fiancee. She was raised by very strict and traditional Catholics. He&#039;s an atheist and so is she. They&#039;ve been living together for almost 5 years and just recently decided to get married. Her parents, who at first were really excited about the wedding, decided they could not attend their daughter&#039;s wedding based on some really screwed up rules in the catecysm (their rule book).
It&#039;s really screwed up and religion does this. It makes seemingly rational people do very irrational things for very stupid reasons.
I&#039;m sorry about your parents, PixelFish and I hope they&#039;ll come to appreciate all your qualities outside of the lenses of religious dogma.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been watching a similar situation unfold with a co-worker and his fiancee. She was raised by very strict and traditional Catholics. He&#8217;s an atheist and so is she. They&#8217;ve been living together for almost 5 years and just recently decided to get married. Her parents, who at first were really excited about the wedding, decided they could not attend their daughter&#8217;s wedding based on some really screwed up rules in the catecysm (their rule book).<br />
It&#8217;s really screwed up and religion does this. It makes seemingly rational people do very irrational things for very stupid reasons.<br />
I&#8217;m sorry about your parents, PixelFish and I hope they&#8217;ll come to appreciate all your qualities outside of the lenses of religious dogma.</p>
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		<title>By: PixelFish</title>
		<link>http://livingwithmormons.com/raising-children-my-letter-to-my-son/comment-page-1/#comment-674</link>
		<dc:creator>PixelFish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Jan 2011 19:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://livingwithmormons.com/?p=299#comment-674</guid>
		<description>Djinn&#039;s remark strikes a chord with me. My parents undoubtedly feel the same way, but outside of LDSland, I&#039;m not particularly wayward. I&#039;m a functioning adult member of society and yet, my parents wave the failure flag. (Less so now that I got married to my long-time boyfriend--seriously, this was the least stressed they&#039;ve been around me in a decade. I&#039;m going to enjoy it while it lasts, since as soon as I get pregnant and don&#039;t bless the kid or raise it in the church, we&#039;ll probably be back to tense discussions. I hope not, but meh, my expectations have been lowered.) 

I wish they&#039;d regard raising a strong independent woman who knows her own mind and waited to get married until she found a man who would respect that about her as an accomplishment. But I&#039;m still a heretic. 

The killer thing for me is they don&#039;t seem to realise how much their behaviour hurts their children. I went from being a total Daddy&#039;s girl to flinching when he starts in on certain subjects, and mostly because one day he told me he regretted spending the money he used to raise me when I opposed him on something. He didn&#039;t mean it, but he never apologised for it either. I went from believing in unconditional parental love to feeling like it had strings attached. Their perspective: That I&#039;m merrily unrepentant and completely oblivious to how much I&#039;ve hurt them, and that I&#039;m constantly rubbing my unbelief in their face. My perspective: I walk on frickin&#039; eggshells, man, and I don&#039;t get the same respect for just being honest about myself. They really do get befuddled, not seeing themselves as aggressors or disrespectful, and certainly not realising how they erode our trust in their unconditional love. It&#039;s the pain from realising that being a non-believer is about as bad as if you were doing drugs or had deliberately hurt somebody, at least in the eyes of your parents. My parents still tell me they love me, but they&#039;ve stopped telling me they&#039;re proud of me. Sigh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Djinn&#8217;s remark strikes a chord with me. My parents undoubtedly feel the same way, but outside of LDSland, I&#8217;m not particularly wayward. I&#8217;m a functioning adult member of society and yet, my parents wave the failure flag. (Less so now that I got married to my long-time boyfriend&#8211;seriously, this was the least stressed they&#8217;ve been around me in a decade. I&#8217;m going to enjoy it while it lasts, since as soon as I get pregnant and don&#8217;t bless the kid or raise it in the church, we&#8217;ll probably be back to tense discussions. I hope not, but meh, my expectations have been lowered.) </p>
<p>I wish they&#8217;d regard raising a strong independent woman who knows her own mind and waited to get married until she found a man who would respect that about her as an accomplishment. But I&#8217;m still a heretic. </p>
<p>The killer thing for me is they don&#8217;t seem to realise how much their behaviour hurts their children. I went from being a total Daddy&#8217;s girl to flinching when he starts in on certain subjects, and mostly because one day he told me he regretted spending the money he used to raise me when I opposed him on something. He didn&#8217;t mean it, but he never apologised for it either. I went from believing in unconditional parental love to feeling like it had strings attached. Their perspective: That I&#8217;m merrily unrepentant and completely oblivious to how much I&#8217;ve hurt them, and that I&#8217;m constantly rubbing my unbelief in their face. My perspective: I walk on frickin&#8217; eggshells, man, and I don&#8217;t get the same respect for just being honest about myself. They really do get befuddled, not seeing themselves as aggressors or disrespectful, and certainly not realising how they erode our trust in their unconditional love. It&#8217;s the pain from realising that being a non-believer is about as bad as if you were doing drugs or had deliberately hurt somebody, at least in the eyes of your parents. My parents still tell me they love me, but they&#8217;ve stopped telling me they&#8217;re proud of me. Sigh.</p>
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		<title>By: djinn</title>
		<link>http://livingwithmormons.com/raising-children-my-letter-to-my-son/comment-page-1/#comment-259</link>
		<dc:creator>djinn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Aug 2009 03:04:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://livingwithmormons.com/?p=299#comment-259</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m so glad you printed this.  Personally, I was horrified at Margaret Young&#039;s &#039;letter&#039; to her son. Does she really think that her 18 year old son can&#039;t use the internet?  The woman posts under her own name, for someone or other&#039;s sake.  She&#039;s just telling the poor kid that he will never be good enough for her with lots of fluffy, fluffy language (and let&#039;s not mention the perfect use of the apostrophe.)  Poor kid!  I knew a tremendously sweet Mormon man with the same attitude towards his &#039;wayward&#039; 18 year old.  The kid helped out at the homeless shelter and was only wayward for very small (e.g. Mormon)values--he didn&#039;t make it to 19.  

But if M. Young&#039;s kid committed suicide, I imagine another beautiful post about how she&#039;s waiting to see him in heaven, with an equally large chorus of well-wishers.  

It&#039;s so freakin&#039; sad.  I just about can&#039;t stand it.  Ruin your kid&#039;s life and get tons of applause; something is wrong here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m so glad you printed this.  Personally, I was horrified at Margaret Young&#8217;s &#8216;letter&#8217; to her son. Does she really think that her 18 year old son can&#8217;t use the internet?  The woman posts under her own name, for someone or other&#8217;s sake.  She&#8217;s just telling the poor kid that he will never be good enough for her with lots of fluffy, fluffy language (and let&#8217;s not mention the perfect use of the apostrophe.)  Poor kid!  I knew a tremendously sweet Mormon man with the same attitude towards his &#8216;wayward&#8217; 18 year old.  The kid helped out at the homeless shelter and was only wayward for very small (e.g. Mormon)values&#8211;he didn&#8217;t make it to 19.  </p>
<p>But if M. Young&#8217;s kid committed suicide, I imagine another beautiful post about how she&#8217;s waiting to see him in heaven, with an equally large chorus of well-wishers.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s so freakin&#8217; sad.  I just about can&#8217;t stand it.  Ruin your kid&#8217;s life and get tons of applause; something is wrong here.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew S.</title>
		<link>http://livingwithmormons.com/raising-children-my-letter-to-my-son/comment-page-1/#comment-258</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Aug 2009 23:17:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://livingwithmormons.com/?p=299#comment-258</guid>
		<description>Well, after my experiences with BCC (with run-ins with moderation), I think they just want to maintain their kind of &quot;country club&quot; atmosphere...comments that shake the chummy environment will naturally be pruned or deleted outright.

It isn&#039;t necessarily bad or good (I personally have a different, more hands-off philosophy regarding moderation), but it just represents the different character of sites.

I can say that if I post under either of my two email addresses, even to this day, my comment will go into a black hole of moderation where it will never come out. BCCers will apologize and say, &quot;Oh, I don&#039;t know how that got there,&quot; but really, excuses don&#039;t really change the fact that I&#039;m still on auto-mod.

Whatever.

Back to the topic at hand. Even though I disagree with Margaret (and it&#039;s a dynamic I face to an extent with my parent), I think that &quot;unconditional love&quot; ends up being a kind of myth anyway. We have to understand that for Margaret and many other believers, the church has been incredible to them. Despite the hiccups and issues, the church has been the source of spiritual advancement and enlightenment, the gospel an anchor for values and happiness, and so on. So, it can seem like wishing the best for a child is to wish that they stay in the church. Sure, it&#039;s easy for some one of us to say, &quot;Well, one can be happy outside of the church...so one should be happy for their child if they are happy, healthy, and productive, not simply if they are in the church&quot;...but as even we should know...the church is much more pervasive in mindsets.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, after my experiences with BCC (with run-ins with moderation), I think they just want to maintain their kind of &#8220;country club&#8221; atmosphere&#8230;comments that shake the chummy environment will naturally be pruned or deleted outright.</p>
<p>It isn&#8217;t necessarily bad or good (I personally have a different, more hands-off philosophy regarding moderation), but it just represents the different character of sites.</p>
<p>I can say that if I post under either of my two email addresses, even to this day, my comment will go into a black hole of moderation where it will never come out. BCCers will apologize and say, &#8220;Oh, I don&#8217;t know how that got there,&#8221; but really, excuses don&#8217;t really change the fact that I&#8217;m still on auto-mod.</p>
<p>Whatever.</p>
<p>Back to the topic at hand. Even though I disagree with Margaret (and it&#8217;s a dynamic I face to an extent with my parent), I think that &#8220;unconditional love&#8221; ends up being a kind of myth anyway. We have to understand that for Margaret and many other believers, the church has been incredible to them. Despite the hiccups and issues, the church has been the source of spiritual advancement and enlightenment, the gospel an anchor for values and happiness, and so on. So, it can seem like wishing the best for a child is to wish that they stay in the church. Sure, it&#8217;s easy for some one of us to say, &#8220;Well, one can be happy outside of the church&#8230;so one should be happy for their child if they are happy, healthy, and productive, not simply if they are in the church&#8221;&#8230;but as even we should know&#8230;the church is much more pervasive in mindsets.</p>
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		<title>By: Sunday in Outer Blogness: Patriotic Politics Edition! &#124; Main Street Plaza</title>
		<link>http://livingwithmormons.com/raising-children-my-letter-to-my-son/comment-page-1/#comment-257</link>
		<dc:creator>Sunday in Outer Blogness: Patriotic Politics Edition! &#124; Main Street Plaza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Aug 2009 22:27:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://livingwithmormons.com/?p=299#comment-257</guid>
		<description>[...] delightfully subversive, whereas Living with Mormons had a slightly less positive experience. His critical response to Margaret Young&#8217;s post was apparently deleted from the comments section. Marcus and Hypatia [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] delightfully subversive, whereas Living with Mormons had a slightly less positive experience. His critical response to Margaret Young&#8217;s post was apparently deleted from the comments section. Marcus and Hypatia [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Marcus</title>
		<link>http://livingwithmormons.com/raising-children-my-letter-to-my-son/comment-page-1/#comment-256</link>
		<dc:creator>Marcus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Aug 2009 13:18:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://livingwithmormons.com/?p=299#comment-256</guid>
		<description>Your not the only one, I think I read that Andrew at Irresistible (Dis)Grace has been semi-permanently been silenced from commenting all together.   That could be vicious rumor though, you&#039;d have to ask him ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your not the only one, I think I read that Andrew at Irresistible (Dis)Grace has been semi-permanently been silenced from commenting all together.   That could be vicious rumor though, you&#8217;d have to ask him <img src='http://livingwithmormons.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://livingwithmormons.com/raising-children-my-letter-to-my-son/comment-page-1/#comment-253</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 19:32:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://livingwithmormons.com/?p=299#comment-253</guid>
		<description>Sadly enough, this morning I found out By Common Consent had deleted my comment on their post and decided to close all comments after that.

So much for their statement on their Info and Contact page:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
We seek truth, reason, and honesty with our perspectives on faith. However, &lt;b&gt;BCC is a place of charitable discussion for everyone, including those who are not Mormon&lt;/b&gt;. We invite you to read past posts and join in the discussion.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

...riiiight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sadly enough, this morning I found out By Common Consent had deleted my comment on their post and decided to close all comments after that.</p>
<p>So much for their statement on their Info and Contact page:</p>
<blockquote><p>
We seek truth, reason, and honesty with our perspectives on faith. However, <b>BCC is a place of charitable discussion for everyone, including those who are not Mormon</b>. We invite you to read past posts and join in the discussion.
</p></blockquote>
<p>&#8230;riiiight.</p>
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