LDS Baptism: Get ‘em while young!
The LDS Baptism has to be one of the best arguments for Joseph Smith being a true prophet of God, but it seems the Church has overlooked this ever so ingenious of rituals.
Allow me to explain:
One of the biggest claims by apologists for the validity of the Book of Mormon is that one Joseph Smith could not possibly have written such a complicated and descriptive narrative, full of details and intricate language, at the young age of 25 without divine assistance.
But Mormon history (the real history… not the stuff the Church pieced together over the years) clearly shows that it was not only possible, but a person of Smith’s character was actually required to pull off such an immoral stunt.
However, when ol’ Joe claimed he received a revelation that all children “shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old,” he hit one out of the ball park, in my opinion.
According to Smith’s revelation, we are all born innocent and children younger than 8 years of age cannot be held accountable for their sins since they do not possess the ability to discern right from wrong.
Children turning 8 are then, allegedly, given the choice to be baptized into the LDS Church and continue their spiritual journey as an official member.
At this age, children are also beginning to develop an understanding of their own self, analyzing relationships in terms of acceptance and seeking to gain confidence in all areas of their lives.
Peer pressure and parental expectations play a large role in this child’s search for their place in society and their own importance.
In most cases, the LDS baptism is viewed by these youngsters (both boys and girls) in the same light little girls dream of one day getting married.
The child is primed from a young age to look forward to the day they will officially be accepted into the fold, albeit under the deception of it being a choice they must make.
The appearance of free will, in this case, could not be further from the truth: for most LDS children, their baptism day comes as a highly expected and anticipated event in their lives; it is a bragging right, so to speak. A rite of passage which comes wrapped in gifts and flattery. It will be viewed by their younger peer as an achievement for which one cannot wait their own, and by their elders as a responsible and mature decision.
On the other hand, a child who is not much older than 8 may begin to see past the glimmering lights of childhood fantasy and instead be compelled to rebel against the establishment (a.k.a. the teens).
So 8 is indeed the perfect age. Whether Smith realized this or not, he created the perfect precedence for LDS baptisms. If he really gave the matter this much thought and research, he’s not all bad in my book, but chances are he stuck his head inside his… hat… and pulled out the first number that came to his mind.
Either way, LDS baptisms are unique in their significance and the lack of recognition of other Christian faith’s baptisms. Mormons don’t believe in original sin, so LDS baptisms play a big role in giving the person a new identity in the Church… a fresh start.
Now, I’ll leave you all with a question (especially those of you who have children):
If you love your children… truly love your children… and you fully believe in the Gospel and doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, then you must believe that your young, non-baptized, children are pure and innocent and free from sin.
As a loving parent myself, I know I would sacrifice anything for the sake of my own children, even my own life.
So I ask: why not kill your children before they reach the age of accountability?
Of course you would be doomed for eternity to never see them again (apparently), but would you not guarantee them their eternal glory, yea, even their exaltation?
(the above question is meant as a rhetorical question and is in no way a suggestion on how to save your children’s souls. I do not believe in souls or the afterlife, so the above has really no affect whatsoever in any eternal afterlife experience fantasy)
Good read up but you lost me at “So I ask: why not kill your children before they reach the age of accountability?” I’m sure there is more to this in the LDS belief structure then I understand but WTF?
As far as kids and how impressionable they are, it’s pretty much a given if they are brainwashed (as I like to say) repeatedly – especially by their peers – they are going to believe, think and do what they have been told. Regarding the peer pressure aspect most teens and adults succumb to this daily. So to think a child is going to know the difference and truly understand the choice they are making is a joke. I’m not saying the family and child is not celebrating something they truly believe is special, just stating that this isn’t a “choice” but an opportunity for a child to make their parents proud.
On a personal note I’m totally disgusted with how my daughter was being brainwashed to the point she believed I was a bad person because I didn’t believe god existed. This is not acceptable at all as I’m a great farther and care what my daughter thinks of me. This train of thought isn’t rooted in only the LDS church but pretty much any established religion.
So what about your kids, will they be deciding at age 8 or 18?
Welcome back, evilution13b!
The point I’m trying to make is a simple rational conclusion based on Smith’s revelation on children not being held accountable for their actions prior to the age of 8.
It’s a question that I think most Mormons either overlook or ignore, among many other logical ones.
It underlines, to me, the superficiality and theatrics of the LDS believer. In general, members just don’t (want to) deal directly with Church doctrine or their personal beliefs.
Your story about your daughter thinking ill of you because you don’t believe in God, sadly, is not the first one I’ve heard.
I think the perception of harmony in the home is one of the main reasons a lot of members don’t speak out openly about their disbelief.
But I commend you for speaking out. I dare say I will never sacrifice intellectual honesty (especially with my children) for complacency.
My wife and I have not discussed baptism extensively, yet. My son just turned 6, so we have a couple more years until he may even come to understand it is available to him (although I imagine he’s being spoon-fed some of it already in Primary every other weekend).
I guess we’ll take it as it comes. He’s very inquisitive and naturally skeptic (as most children are at this age), so there will be lots of Q&A going on around that time.
Cheers.
I’ve always thought Mormon baptism was way too early. At least the Jews wait until a pivotal decision-making age. I was really excited for my baptism. And I’ve never known an 8-year-old to turn one down. It’s barely even the child’s decision, and I definitely agree it’s more a coming-of-age ritual that comes way before it should.
And anyone under 8 can’t tell right from wrong? Seems like an excuse. I think that their “conscience”, so to speak, starts to develop far before 8 years old, and doesn’t finish at 8, either. I think I heard that in men, the personality that sort of chooses morals isn’t fully developed until their mid 30s. And it’s true that people develop more or less quickly than others, right?
I’ve often wondered similar things. If young children below the age of reason according to any given faith (7 for Catholics) are free of sin and have a get-outta-hell-free card, why do parents, churches, and their gods all allow kids to grow older and be at risk of eternal suffering? Also, some Christians believe that people in faraway countries who have never heard the Gospel are also freed from the “must believe” tenants of the Bible – in which case, isn’t missionary work pure evil? People who might otherwise escape on a claim of ignorance are now stuck with a choice of believing something ludicrous or going to hell!
[...] hands and voracious hearts – that’s good parenting! Living with Mormons looks at the perfect age to make a major spiritual decision. Most mocking of all is the insidious leakage of religion into law, as vjack explains.Mind you, [...]
I am sorry you feel that way. So, you are saying “why baptize children when they are innocent?” They don’t need it right??? So, why did christ get baptized?? He obviously didn’t need to be. Just something to think about.
If you truly would like an answer to that question, it is because Latter-Day Saints believe that we all “chose” to come to this earth to go through life experiences to grow and develope “eternal character”, (my term, not Joseph Smith’s)if you will. We see life as a growing and learning time, as well as a testing time, so why would we take away our children’s opportunity to grow and learn, not to mention committing such a gevious sin that we would pretty much insure that our own life was a waste of effort and a total failure? Learning to “choose the right” is what it’s supposed to be about, not choosing the wrong.
We (Mormons) also believe in the Gift of the Holy Ghost, which occurs after the prerequisite of baptism. Baptism is the gate to the path of Eternal Life; it sets us on the beginning of the path. Baptism doesn’t save us, but staying on the path after baptism does. The Gift of the Holy Ghost is another ordinance that follows baptism in which the newly baptized person receives the promise of an extra endowment of the Lord’s Spirit (or Holy Ghost) and His blessings to follow (the fruit of the Spirit): personal revelation (more than just inspiration) and many other fruits of the Spirit like joy, peace, happiness, long-suffering, patience, spiritual refinement, sanctification, purification. If you imagine our walk on the path of Eternal Life as occurring in a dark room, then the Gift of the Holy Ghost is like receiving a flashlight that usually just lights a few steps ahead of us, and every once in a while illuminates the scenery to the side or way ahead, or even beyond the end of the mortal path. Who wouldn’t want to give that to their children when eight years old?
My little girl is being pulled in the direction of baptism by her grandmother who promises her more friends and other lies.
Being 8 and very socially aware, she tells me she doesn’t want to be friends with the very kids, saying they are rude and not allowed to play at our house (the evil non-mormon neighbor).
I am confident that she is learning standard American values of honesty, hard work, charity and humility within our family setting. I don’t appreciate grandma’s use of threats of what might happen if she’s not baptized. “She’ll end up…..” usually begins the threats.
Being a career educator/administrator I can promise that mormon and non-mormon children suffer social ills the same. Given the additional pressures to present a facad, I believe the non-member children have a more supportive primary group at home.
Dear Grandma,
You forced religion upon your five children. How many of them are dedicated mormons? Zero. How many have divorced? Two.
Please allow me to parent in a different way. “She’ll end up….
”
Tolerant
Kind
Compassionate
Service minded
Free thinking….
….Just like her mother
I do not discourage religion. I am however leaving the choice to her. After all, isn’t that why 8 is the “age of accountability”?
I have often heard (being raised LDS) that “we” are baptized at 8 to receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost at such a young age, which will help us “Choose the Right” in all of our adolescent years. I believe that God is with ALL of his children – not just members of the LDS faith who have the “gift” of the holy ghost with them. I believe that God will help all who need him. Why do we think we need to baptise so early? They are little children without sin. Why not wait until they are older and can actually benefit from their sins being washed away and being made clean? Let us not forget another HUGE clause to this – the becomming a member of the LDS church before they have ANY idea what they are choosing.
While I see that this subject is almost a year old, I would like to add my two cents…
Unfortunately, most people’s view and judgments of Mormons and their practices come from watching what I call “traditional Mormons”. This concept is not new to the world. The Jews of Christ’s time had the scriptures, but lived what they thought was right, but was merely a shadow of what the truth was. Catholics for generations, have lived various traditional versions of what they thought was truth. Any LDS person who does not teach their child the truth, and allow them free choice, working to curb the brainwashing of traditionalists and society, is not living the religion they profess to believe in. and many of the options and thoughts expressed above, about the seemingly hypocritical Mormons they encounter, are because to few Mormons live the religion as it should be lived. Yes, i do believe that if a child should die(even if it is by the hands of their parents(very bad idea)) before the age of accountability, would be saved through Christ’s sacrifice.
I still remember my baptism day. It’s definately something you can choose to have done. You aren’t a baby at age 8… You’re old enough to choose for yourself and make personal decisions. Killing your child before age 8 would be totally mocking God’s awesome plan. Jesus suffered for our sins on the cross so we can repent and make it back to Heaven. I am only 13 but I freaking know this is all true. It’s your choice if you wanna believe it or not though.
It is a choice. That’s the point. What kind of parent would you be if you didn’t help your children make good choices? Peer pressure will influence their choices enough already. Why not give them a jumpstart in a good direction? If you are not going to advise your children for the good, and leave all their decisions up to themselves, then what the hell are you doing as a parent? The ‘cool’ kids at school will surely help them in decision making. Are you going to raise your kids, or let society raise them? Any church can help you raise your kids. Once or twice a week would be good to go to church and learn about Christ, but most teachings of Christ should be learned in the home by the example of loving parents. Not every child is privilidged to have a good home, so churches can help more in those situations.
From what I have read about the LDS religion, it is a good church. They help out any disaster with money, hygene kits, food, medical help, etc. all from funds donated by members of the church. They teach good Christian values. They are some of the nicest people I have met. They’re kids are generally well behaved, but remember they are still kids. Nobody’s perfect. That’s why we have baptism. We mess up. And if you mess up after baptism, according to the LDS doctrine you can take the sacrament to renew your baptismal covenent. If the religion is not for you, move on. Let them worship how they want, and dont be angry because it is not how you worship. From one of their Articles of Faith: We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
Baptism is with out doubt the best choice I have made in my life! I used to be of a different faith, but after looking way into the LDS religion, and PRAYING sincerly about the truth. I got my answer by the wonderful power of the Holy Ghost. All the things I read about, learned, and felt all made sense to me. I could also see how the adversary works. After making the choice of being baptized I recieved MANY calls and emails that was full with anti-mormon “facts”. Most of the people who fed me this stuff did not even attend church. It really hit me to see how satan was trying to keep me from my baptism. I know that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is led by Jesus Christ who is the savior of all of us. I have felt his spirit and his love. Most of the anti-mormon stuff I have come across is either not true or put into words that make it sound so bad. I was 18 years old when I was baptized, I really do wish I had the chance to be baptized at 8 years old. A year after I was baptized I MADE the choice of serving a 2 year mission. It was truly the best 2 years of my life. I got to teach people about Jesus Christ, and help them gain a strong testimony. I had the opportunity to do service for everyone! I am so blessed to have the LDS Church, and I hope people can stop gossiping about beliefs and find out on your own. Go to mormon.org and request missionaries, I promise all your questions will be answered. Gosh, I hear so much bad stuff talked about the church, and it testifies to me how satan is working to “try” and destroy Jesus Christ’s church. If you want to know about the mormon religion…ASK A MORMON!
[...] “give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man,” but perhaps ol’ Joe Smith was indeed onto something with making them wait for it until they’re eight, as Living With Mormons argues. He ends [...]
Lol you guys are acting like 8 year olds are little retards! They are not and they defiantly know wrong from right. 18 years is way to old to give them the choice, because they have already had it for years!!
I find it very funny that you used this picture of the baby in water, you don’t see that as a type of brainwash. They use that in marketing, showing a outrageous picture to make people react in either a positive or negative way… and you my friend picked the perfect one to jump start the negativity you feel about the church. Maybe you should not be questioning what we do, but question yourself.